My sister is in town with her 17-month-old daughter, and today we went to the Munich zoo.
It’s a great zoo, but it’s still a zoo. The apes live indoors in a big room the size of a gymnasium. They’re locked in there for the amusement of the throngs of children who smack their palms on the inch-thick glass and squeal. And I’m not an expert on apes, but they don’t look psyched about it.
And so I was thinking: now that we have cheap HD video and the internet, we don’t need to do this anymore. Let’s just close all the zoos and use the money to establish a fabulous online library of animal videos, and massive wildlife preserves that you can visit on foot or via jeep safari. In the process, we’ll free up acres of prime urban real estate that can be sold as parkland and residential neighborhoods.
Ok, visiting youtube isn’t the same as going to the zoo, but we’ve moved our freaks from the fairground to the internet, so the idea is not without precedent.
As a vegetarian, I’m used to being in the minority on this kind of thing, but I thought I’d put it out there anyway.
Posted on 28 May 2010
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Here’s another idea: How about we make sure that animals in captivity are the exception rather than the rule? More Tigers are in *private* (non-zoo) captivity in the US than in the wild (source: http://www.worldwildlife.org/who/media/press/2008/WWFPresitem9758.html).
Personally, I detest zoos, but I find Zoos a *much* better place for an animal to be in captivity, than in a private collection in chains.
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I agree with you to an extent, but it is possible to do zoos right… I live very close to the San Diego Wild Animal Park, and it doesn’t seem at all cruel. That said, I’ve never seen anything quite like the Wild Animal Park anywhere else… search for it on Flickr, you’ll see what I mean.
Pretty much all the other zoos I’ve seen are quite horrible. IIRC San Diego’s is pretty decent, but I remember being appalled the first time I saw a zoo in another city (Los Angeles).
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Cheap electronics eh?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gCuLuwoovk
You know these cheap electronics are only possible because western countries still exploit africa for its raw materials. Of course there are no tigers in africa, but a situation where you exploit a whole continent for its raw materials does not make a good social ecological environment able to sustain itself.
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I’m not a mineral expert but as far as I know Tantalum is mostly mined in Australia at the (according to Wikipedia) Wodgina mine. The stuff mined in the Congo is a minority of the global supply, so we shouldn’t need to buy our Tantalum ore there.
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than why you can`t understand some people just like monkeys in cages more then monkeys on a screen?
were are just not the same … some of us like meet … that doesn`t mean we are cruel… killing is not bad … bad are the reasons why we do it.Monkeys in a big room the size of a gymnasium are far better then pigs and chickens in farms but i like their taste a lot and i won`t quit it even if you think i`m cruel .. ohh maybe i`l start eating some dogs or maybe a guinea-pig just to see how it tastes i`m sure it won`t taste too good
On some points I agree with you “massive wildlife preserves that you can visit on foot or via jeep safari” This would be much better that a zoo. but a lot of the animals in the zoo just won`t make it there
i`m almost sure germany can`t accommodate monkeys in a “massive wildlife preserves that you can visit on foot or via jeep safari” the climate just isn`t the right one.I`m sorry for my previous comment but this sort of perfect solutions just don`t work for everyone .Please excuse me
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Without zoos, a few of those animals you see in captivity would be entirely extinct.
I won’t claim that every animal in every zoo is a necessity, or even close to it, but there definitely is a good and beneficial component to zoos. The other animals may not be strictly necessary for the preservation of a few select species, but they do help draw in crowds, and hence money, and hence contribute to the upkeep and caretaking of endangered species.
I’d argue in favor of drastically cutting human population and hence cutting the deforestation and destruction of habitats long before I’d argue in favor of closing zoos. Unfortunately, even non-violent reduction of human population is considered a crime against humanity by the U.N. (e.g., forced sterilization), so we’re pretty much stuck moving more and more animals into zoos because they’re completely obliterated from the wild by an exponentially increasing human population.
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There’s plenty of room on the planet for lots of wild animals, even when we hit 9 billion people. We don’t need to cut the human population, we just need to set aside areas for animals.
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Uh, yes we do need to stop human population growth.
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*We* don’t need to stop human population growth. Nature will take care of that, just as it does for every other species.
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How can you consider forced sterilisation non violent?
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We’d need SmellTube in 3D, but for me it would work. But the smell of elephant poop is essential for the true zoo experience.
Btw: I think the Africa ore is called coltan.Glad to see you are still in .bavaria. I thought you would run off to Arnold after quitting at SUSE.
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Most zoos, at least those accredited by the American Zoological Association are a whole lot more than just places where animals live in cages — in fact, if that was all they were, they wouldn’t be accredited. They’re genuine research institutions that seek to understand the animals we live with and in many cases find ways to care for animals in the wild. Their knowledge is CRITICAL toward saving many endangered species — particularly as there are numerous species that exist only in captivity. Yes, it’s sad, but if there is a stable breeding program then one day we can return those animals to the wild.
Another key component of zoos is their conservation education. People may get passionate about saving elephants or komodo dragons by watching a youtube video, but being able to see an actual animal, and speak with an expert on the animal is FAR different and will have a much greater effect.
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Wow, Sean, what a terrific authoritarian central planner you’d make.
Forced sterilization is non-violent in your book? What do you do to a person who graciously declines?
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I agree with Patrick’s comment — even though I’m vegan, I’m not much bothered by zoos, at least the ones in places like Germany or the US. Their upside of providing education and general familiarity with the fact that there are other sentient beings around, with happiness and suffering not dissimilar to our own, probably outweighs the downside of providing a relatively unstimulating environment for some of the animals.
To put it another way: zoos are insignificant compared to the problem of the ten billion animals that are being (made to suffer and then) commercially slaughtered in the US every year. Zoos aren’t obviously the cause of that problem, and the up-close contact they offer could be part of the solution.
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You probably already know my opinion on the matter but since you’re asking: I’ll take a little of all the more-extreme proposals. Limit human population, and reserve as much land as possible for non-human use, and close the zoos while you’re at it.
We can study others in their own habitat. It’s more accurate and there’s a better chance they’ll actually be non-crazy, happy, breeding, flourishing, interacting, etc.
Besides, alimalia isn’t the only kingdom losing habitat to us.
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Yes, I agree with you 100%! I just had a conversation today with Duncan about how zoos aren’t needed anymore because of videos and the internet, and how they are cruel both to the animals and potentially dangerous to the humans working there. He sent me this link an hour later. Too funny!
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Zoos have always depressed me, but I have a history of feeling more empathy for animals than people. If I were the sort to care, I’m sure the DSM would have something to say about me.
My wife really likes zoos, but I find them wrong on a visceral level. The last zoo I went to was the Central Park Zoo, and seeing the polar bears (and all of the animals) with such a small area to roam and swim, compared to their natural habitat[1], was profoundly disturbing.
[1] Yes, global warming, humans are bastards, etc., I hate that too.
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I know as a parent, my daughter has a much greater appreciation for the animals she has been close to in real life. We spend a lot of time at the zoo and the aquarium. Those live animals on the other side of the glass are much more real to her than anything she would ever view on a TV or computer monitor. I think the argument could even be made that a few animals who might be a little uncomfortable in captivity at a well-equiped facility are a worthy sacrifice to help humans feel connected to them so that they will, as adults, strive to protect those same species in their natural habitats. I am not by any means condoning or justifying any type of abuse or mistreatment of any animal. I am merely suggesting that the ability for children today to create a personal connection with an animal in a controlled environment today may save thousands of those animals when that child is an adult. Now a circus on the other hand…
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Maybe you should visit the zoo in Leipzig, they have comparatively huge nature-like habitats for the animals.
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A) getmiro.com
B) search for Earth Touch in HD -
Nat, I felt the same way as you the last time I visited a zoo. I thought it would be like going as a child, but instead it felt uncomfortable and wrong. It was supposed to be a fun date for me and my wife, but instead it was just depressing to me.
That being said, I have to strongly agree with Kennon on a few points. There *is* a difference between seeing a youtube video and being a few feet away from a wild animal, having it look right at you, smelling it, etc etc. If you want kids to empathize with animals, you’re not going to be able to achieve it with youtube alone.
I know many animals at zoos are (or were) injured in some way that would lead to certain death in the wild, or were the victims of habitat destruction, etc. I don’t know if this is true of all of them. But given that, and the importance of teaching children about life on earth, I think that zoos are a bearable necessity.
Though seeing animals in small artificial habitats may depress me, I will put on a happy face and take my son as soon as he is old enough, because I think the benefits to him outweigh the cost to me, and ultimately, the benefits to all animals outweigh the cost to those animals.
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Zoos play an important role in some (but probably not most species.) They have breeding programs for endangered animals. They also study how to help them in the wild. And some of them take rescue animals. For example, some of the Denver sea lions come from a rescue group in California. One is missing its tail. Another was injured and rescued too early in life and can’t live in the wild.
While some of the animals look miserable to me (polar bears, hippos, etc), some species are being helped by zoos. (I’d love to see them let the lions really hunt … they always look so bored.)
I think the newer and remodeled zoos have better habitats for the animals but there’s still a lot of work to be done …
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A tend to agree, but zoos generally do not limit themselves to remedying damages we made to some animals/species. They rather try to be attractive and show the more animals the better.
Additionally, i’d rather see resources used on preventing the causes of more species extinction, than on trying to save the last living heads of some species. And i also try to do this prevention myself by lowering my demands for resources (being vegan, not buying car, not upgrading or buying new hardware without good thinking, lowering my waste production and energy consumption, supporting organizations evangelizing this).
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That is a brilliant idea.
I am all for breeding programs but only today was discussing with my wife how I could not keep animals that are “contained” as I never feel the container is big enough.
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As a first step, live webcams are getting set up in some zoos, eg:
http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Animals/WebCams/default.cfm -
I agree with you, as a market place, we’re just not there yet and it’s a situation that needs more involvement from observers than cursory apathy (which i’m hypocritically about to dive into)
I’m sure you had taken into account that many zoos (in-fact 100% of zoos in Australia and New Zealand) host conservation efforts at their zoos that rely on tourism to both fund their projects and raise awareness.
On conservation, there are some heartbreaking documentaries about the big game animal parks in Africa which rely 100% on privately funded hunting on their grounds to fund animal conservation efforts. Its the basis of an ongoing huge ethical dilemma for the zoo keepers. to me it’s like screwing for virginity when you get two virgins for every one you screw… the math adds up but it’ll always be wrong.
While awareness can be mostly taken care of with youtube etc. Digital video and interactive digital content hasn’t yet claimed the same transaction-based value as gate tickets for a trip to the zoo (as a physical location) but some would argue that the scale of the internet provides a larger market. nobody knows ‘the size of the prize’ for attempting something like this and my understanding is that current efforts are conservative at best. The cams in zoos are a great intermediary but substituting anything electronic for the benefits of a day outdoors with the family is going to be a very very very hard sell
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Nat, i agree with you on unnecessity of zoos. Even on watching animal HD videos (we buy the hardware anyway, and we can share the hardware and watch it in groups to save a bit of resources). But i wouldn’t go as far as traveling to far wild lands to watch animals not common in my neighborhood. There’s plenty of life to be fascinated about almost anywhere on the planet. But i’m in a minority with such attitudes, too (me being veg, too. glad to know you are, too!).
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I was at a zoo yesterday as it was attached to a tourist trail of hot springs in Beppu Japan. It was horiffic to see an African elephant in a cage smaller than my flat/appartment. My boyfriend and I had to rush through as we didn’t want to see it. He was in tears by the exit gate. When discussing it I mentioned how children would be facinated but not understand how the context was wrong. We have to move on and stop this so that we can teach children that this is wrong.
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